June 22, 2023

Episode #89: Ken Johnson – Indiana Physical Therapy

Ken Johnson attended college at Indiana University where he received his Bachelor’s in Physical Therapy in 1997. Since then, Ken has received a Graduate Certificate in Health Sciences Patient Centered Outcomes in 2006 from Indiana University, in addition to numerous other certifications to ensure he is up to date with the most recent research and treatment techniques when treating his patients.

Ken has practiced in outpatient orthopedic clinics his entire career and enjoys the challenge this setting brings. He is trained in Graston soft tissue mobilization, dry needling, FMS/SFMA evaluation, and Blankenship WorkEval Functional Evaluation. He has a special interest in cervical and shoulder dysfunction, thoracic outlet syndrome, and return to work training. Ken is also passionate about working with athletes to help them return to their sport of choice.

Ken has lived on the south side of Indianapolis since 1997 with his wife. He has four children in high school and college and a pet to help keep him busy. While not at work, he enjoys cycling, watching sporting events, and spending time relaxing with friends and family.


hello this is coach Tim Campsall and I’m your host for the self-made is a myth make a difference together show where we are talking with successful business owners to hear their stories of building their business and because we know that success in business is not something that we can achieve on our own we’re taking time to recognize the folks who have helped us along the way and and helped us to excel today I’m excited to have a fellow business owner from Indiana with us my guest I will check this out once caught a five and a half foot black tip shark while fishing in Florida in his downtime he enjoys cycling with friends and he’s most proud of building a business that serves the community it’s my pleasure to welcome Ken to the show today hello Ken hello thanks for having me absolutely well hey let’s start with having you introduce yourself tell us a little bit of your personal story like where you were born and live and about your family and hobbies all right well I uh was born in Columbus Ohio actually but only lived there for a pretty short time I grew up in Lima Ohio a small town in Northwestern Ohio um graduated high school there and then went to Indiana University and went into physical therapy at IU finished up my PT degree in Indianapolis which is where the physical therapy school is and then I’ve essentially been in Indianapolis uh ever since I had a real short stint down in Columbus Indiana when I worked for a regional PT provider and I was looking to do some different things after my first job in a hospital and um but after that short stint in Columbus I have been in Indianapolis and on the south side of Indianapolis for almost my whole career wonderful so yeah and I um have a uh I have four kids and we’ve lived on the south outside their whole lives so they’ve gone to high school on the South Side here I enjoy cycling as kind of just for exercise it’s a relatively new pursuit in the last number of years just it helped me stay active and was a good source of socializing with friends in the past I’ve done as you mentioned fishing it’s not something I’ve done uh to real high levels but every once in a while you get lucky and you catch a big shot that was pretty fun and uh golf and things like that but for the most part it’s uh you know do a lot of working a lot of time with kids and family and you know enjoy myself that way wonderful so how long does it did it take to bring in that shark you know that’s a good question um you kind of lose track of time a little bit you know you’re using bask in bluegill which you don’t really time uh how long it takes to bring the opinion uh so it was it was a uh a relatively long period of time though I was retired by the time

is there a funny story that your family likes to tell about you that you’d be willing to share with us today Ken well so anyone who has uh I was kind of talking to my family a little bit about different things that maybe they uh would like to uh make fun of me about and seem like across the board everyone enjoyed this story it’s not really my favorite but uh whatever well that means it’s going to be perfect yeah right right so anyone that has kids knows that you know kids will do different things and it’s like okay you know I want to do this so my oldest son this wasn’t actually that long ago which makes it even more embarrassing but he was out front trying to do a wheelie and so yeah okay I mean I used to do wheelies when I was little right I mean how hard can that be so you know you’re kind of talking to him it’s like okay you really gotta you gotta sell out you know you can’t just kind of do these little pop-ups with the wheel you got to really pull up and you got to go and so you know I’m I’m showing him how to do this and it’s like okay so I I pull up and I get the wheel up and you know kind of forget the fact that if the wheel turns when it’s off the ground and you come down on the turned wheel that’s not rolling forward anymore oh no it was an immediate like I hit the ground as fast as you can imagine and you know everybody is just like big eyed and just are you okay are you okay now I’m not sure if they if they seem real concerned before or after they were laughing I’m not sure really the order of things there but for me it reminded me that uh I’m not uh I’m not 12 anymore right maybe I don’t need to be doing wheelies and and you taught your son what not to do right yeah I mean that’s as important as anything right this is what you don’t do uh and uh maybe you can figure it out on your own better thanks for sharing that’s awesome so Ken tell us how did the the business come about and at what point did you have the confidence that you could run your own business well it’s kind of interesting so when I I had mentioned I was in Columbus for a period of time I left the hospital that I was working in and uh I was looking to do something more I was a staff therapist in the hospital and basically you’re just seeing patients and that’s kind of all your your role is um I want to do a little bit more I want to do more kind of on the administrative side and just kind of see what that part of the business was like and it just wasn’t an option in the hospital so I contacted another company went to this Regional provider who gave me the opportunity to start looking at running my own clinic and through the process of kind of going through some of the training that they did and some of the process of finding space and kind of getting into how to go about a leash and all of these things uh it became pretty apparent that you know the most important thing with any business is having customers and I kind of had a customer base and I felt like I could kind of do it on my own and not have to run it through somebody else right so um and I wasn’t at a point where I felt like oh I just want to go do this by myself and kind of to the the point of this podcast uh there was actually a former professor of mine who had always been in contact with just over the years this was probably eight or nine years after graduation so just over time we had kind of gotten together for breakfast or lunch and just kind of been in touch it wasn’t like we were seeing each other all the time but you know it was enough and he actually had started his own business with another business partner up on the other side of the city and so I kind of contacted him and just said hey you know it might be an opportunity here on the South Side I’ve got lots of contacts this might be something that uh maybe uh you would be interested in or we could look in together and he was interested and he was like Hey you know let’s talk a little bit more about it and so you know that was probably the first interaction where it was like uh somebody else who had some experience and had some knowledge about how to go about this process uh kind of help to to formulate that thought in my mind and it was one of those things that we were able to then put together and kind of move forward so some of the some of the nitty-gritty he and his other business partner had already done and so some of that we didn’t have to do which was an advantage for us for sure and then we were able to um kind of push that along and then open up this South Side location um you know within probably a year after talking I can’t remember exactly when we started talking but it was it was probably within a year so we had formed a business entity and then uh decided to open this South Side location fantastic so tell us a little bit more about the company what’s what’s the name what do you guys do how do you help people well we’re Indiana physical therapy now we’ve uh kind of changed that original company which started back in 2006 um you know as with any business partner you kind of have different Visions as to how you want things to go and so a few years ago we had decided that maybe our Visions were a little bit uh diverging so I decided to go in a different direction so I uh merged with Indiana physical therapy at that time uh that was in 2019 um and uh we are and we’ve kind of been the same type of entity all along nothing really changed when the business name changed literally we didn’t change space we didn’t change staff we just changed ownership structure yeah um so uh we are a physical therapy provider we provide outpatient Physical Therapy Services which if you’re not familiar with uh Physical Therapy outpatient Orthopedic physical therapy is essentially what most people that live at home and are independent kind of that middle age especially if you need physical therapy for back pain or shoulder pain or knee pain that’s where you go so it’s that kind of entity we see a lot of different things but for the most part it’s outpatient Orthopedics musculoskeletal problems so post-surgical injuries chronic you know back and neck pain you know you sit at a desk or a computer all day and of course you’ve got some aches and pains just because her body’s really are meant to do that for eight to ten hours a day yeah so those are the kinds of things we treat and then we do see some other things I see some vestibular rehab which is uh dizziness um that can be caused from a number of different neurologic uh situations but I’ll treat that that’s a little bit of a specialty and then temporomandibular dysfunction which is jaw pain which is again another little bit I mean it’s still very much outpatient Orthopedic oriented but a little bit of a specialty that we see that not everyone sees so that’s how we’ve tried to diversify a little bit into a couple different areas uh than just the straight up outpatient Orthopedics post-surgical stuff wonderful so can share a story where someone pushed you or inspired you that you could do it even though maybe you didn’t think you could and the impact that that person had on you yeah I mean it kind of comes back to that uh story I just told it was one of those things that I just you know I didn’t know a lot of the ins and outs of how to go about the whole process and that uh former mentor of mine that had kind of already gone through that process uh was instrumental in helping to kind of push that along and uh kind of give me some direction um do a lot of the pieces that maybe we didn’t know how to do and um and really just kind of push things in that direction and just give us a little bit of guidance as well as um some real nuts and bolts to that process so that we weren’t trying to just figure it all out on our own that is one of those things that you know when we had talked originally and uh just kind of about the the idea of this podcast and kind of what your your whole message is it really spoke to me just because I don’t know I mean I I know there are people that do it completely on their own that’s not really my personality I wouldn’t be one that’s just going to go out and and start just creating businesses and creating opportunities like that um much more comfortable with kind of getting to know people seeing kind of how they do things and then if they have advice and help that they can provide that’s uh that really is what I like to do is work with people on those kinds of projects so and what’s that uh mentor’s name his name is Brian Pease all right and he uh he is still a business owner on the North side he’s got a few clinics on the North side um that are still providing great care he was a wonderful uh professor of mine MPT school and then like I said just kind of helped in a lot of ways to uh kind of get me going in this direction fantastic Ken you’ve probably uh experienced a lot over the years what’s your biggest learning as a business owner um biggest learning that’s interesting um as a business owner so the the tricky part for us as as uh physical therapists and providers um and business owners as well is the fact that you’re trying to do all of those things so I kind of feel like you’re you’re doing sales when you’re out trying to Market you’re obviously providing the care so you’re kind of generating the revenue and then you’re also trying to kind of figure out the business side of things so you know the biggest learning is how to um you know manage all of those things and then find those other people that can kind of help with that process and that that’s been challenging I mean there’s no question about that you know time is time is the uh limiting factor with with everything and uh finding the time to do that you have to provide the patient care or you don’t have Revenue yes yeah so that’s the most important thing and then if you don’t do the marketing you don’t have the people coming in so you don’t you can’t generate the revenue yeah so being able to kind of balance all of that on top of the the business side of it just the um you know the administration of the business those are those are all very challenging pieces and trying to juggle all of that as easily the the biggest thing we’ve had to I’ve had to learn along the way we call that the teeter-totter effect it’s the get the work do the work get the work do the work right and yeah oftentimes what we can the mistake we can make is that we you know we spend the time getting the work and then then we shift and and execute the work and then we have to stop getting the work so then it’s like oh oops now now I don’t have any clients or customers I got to go back so yeah it’s this it’s it’s this back and forth so I appreciate you sharing that because it is definitely you know a learning curve and and something that we all have to to to get through to the point where oh yeah there’s also a business that has to be run in the background and when am I going to have time to do that yeah no those are the biggest challenges by far well Ken we know that business success doesn’t happen in isolation you’ve already alluded to that so tell us about your biggest challenge during the years and maybe a fellow business owner that came alongside you and helped you through that challenge

um the challenges that we um have gone over the years or certainly I mean growth is always a challenge and being able to find those uh people that can kind of help with that growth with this um newest Venture that we’re involved with now Indian and physical therapy that was one of the things that uh they certainly wanted to do Indiana physical therapy is kind of folk or um uh centered up in the Fort Wayne area uh there are 18 clinics up in the Fort Wayne and Northern Indiana area and they wanted to grow into the Indianapolis area and when we were at that point where it’s like okay what do we want to do um growth was one of the things that you kind of have to do if you want to continue to you know have viability as a business so um being able to talk to them see kind of what they have done up North and then to partner with them uh down here has allowed us a lot more flexibility and opportunity to then grow the other thing that was a real Challenge and there’s no secret to anyone who’s been in business and I mean even just in society the last few years the pandemic was very very challenging um and for us it was challenging it I guess every business was like this but we’re talking about a business that relies on very close interaction with people like I’m two feet from people or I’m touching people all day long and you know you’re talking about a situation that people were very nervous about didn’t know what to do um didn’t feel like they could be around people and that really affected a lot of what we had going on so um you know my current business partners with Indiana Physical Therapy were um just instrumental at that time to kind of help through that process a bigger Corporation a bigger company could help weather that Financial storm that was coming um and then obviously some of the administrative pieces that were in place with a bigger company helped to kind of figure out how are we going to um do the financial piece how are we going to uh manage all of the different things it came with the um just the pandemic in general and some of the staffing needs that we had or didn’t need at that point because you know when two-thirds of your business goes away kind of in the course of a couple weeks yes quite as much staff as you had before so yes yes it really was a challenging time and they were instrumental in kind of helping that process and really making things a lot more palatable throughout that at that time definitely hard to do what you do from six feet away right yeah I mean six feet or you know over the phone or you know I mean there were people that tried to do Telehealth and all kinds of different things which um we did a little bit of I didn’t we had other therapists that tried to do some of that and and there were all kinds of podcasts that you’d listen to where they were talking about hey this is how you could do this and you know it was creative everybody was trying to figure out a way but um you know when it comes down to it what I do just it really requires close proximity right yes well I’m glad that uh you guys were able to navigate through it and that we have the opportunity to chat today oh yeah can if I I’m gonna put you on the spot here if I was to ask you to pick three people in your business owner Journey that you’re most grateful for them being there to help with your business growth who are those three people and how they help you well the business the number one the business growth is kind of already talked about Brian was instrumental with that I mean he he is kind of who started that whole process and uh really got us going in the right direction so that was very helpful um my current partners are other ones uh as I mentioned you know through the pandemic like I mentioned we kind of made this transition in 2019. this was literally like eight months before the pandemic hit so we were still a little bit in a learning curve kind of learning each other and trying to figure out kind of everyone’s place and so for them to kind of take take me on at that point and uh you know be willing to um kind of work with me on all of those things I’m very fortunate that they’ve been such good partners and have helped with that so uh they kind of as a collective group um there are four other partners there so there’s five of us in this entity so um and then I mean I would be remiss to not mention my wife you know I mean it’s one of those things that’s not a direct business you know interaction but uh one of the themes that I’ve always kind of felt like I’ve done different talks with groups on kind of entrepreneurial ship and and things that you need to make sure in place and a support network is first and foremost and that support network can be professional obviously I think that’s important you need to have people that you can go to when you’ve got professional questions and and you know what do you do with with this situation or with this kind of HR stuff or or how does that work but a family support network is equally if not more important you need somebody that is going to be supportive when you are not able to be around or when you’re you know kind of stressed or occupied with other things on your mind someone that understands and is willing to kind of work with you on that so my wife has been you know as big a help with all of this as anyone so so those are probably who I would say is my my biggest three when it comes to kind of help with the business uh transition and ownership and all of that wonderful and what’s your wife’s name uh Ann and how long have you guys been married uh we’ve been married for uh going on 26 years it’ll be 26 years in August Awesome they celebrated our silver anniversary so congratulations that’s awesome thank you yeah so Ken as you think about the next three to five years what are the biggest challenges that you see that you’re going to face in reaching your goals and who are the types of people you’re going to need to help you solve those yeah well one thing that I did not anticipate that we’re really kind of struggling with right now is Staffing and I know Staffing is one of those things that everyone every business talks about right now but I just felt like Health Care was insulated from that you know there’s their new school new physical therapy schools popping up all the time lots of new grads uh I honestly felt like it might be the opposite problem that there were going to be too many therapists and it was going to kind of drive down the demand which you know doesn’t necessarily have a great impact on the profession um but we have really struggled finding therapists in the last uh in the last year or so it’s it’s been a struggle and we talked to other businesses other Clinic owners and they’re kind of finding the same thing so that’s what I would say right now and maybe that’s just because it’s in my face right now see that is my biggest challenge is uh Staffing and making sure that you’re kind of balancing the right number and you know that’s with any business trying to balance the right number of employees to the amount of business you have you never want to be overstaffed to where you just feel like you’re paying out way more than you should for the business you can or the revenue you can generate you don’t really want to be understaffed especially in a service industry because you’re not able to provide the service that you you want to yeah so there’s this kind of there’s always a dynamic with that but right now uh that’s our biggest challenge another huge Challenge and this just comes with um you know a little bit the political environment with health care but Health Care is really in the Forefront of like what are we going to do moving forward as a country and so that’s a real challenge for us too is um you know how do we manage that as with any business and you see this with you know not just health care but really what business owners want to know is like what are the rules yes and then you tell me the rules and I’ll figure out what I need to do yeah but when the rules are like vague and no one really knows what they’re going to be in a few years and that’s health care and you know not it’s not a right issue a left issue I mean it’s just no one knows what the rules are right and so it’s very difficult to figure out what we’re going to do moving forward and I mean that’s that’s a challenge on every level when it comes to Staffing when it comes to how we’re going to be able to provide the services we provide do we need to continue kind of down this path or is that path going to dry up because they they’re going to change the way physical therapy therapy can provide those services and we’re going to need to find another Avenue so if if we just could get to a point where we kind of know what the rules are and what the the situation is going to be then you you know the creativity and the the coming together and coming up with those Solutions can happen it’s just very difficult to do that when you don’t even know what the rules are going to be fair enough right that’s probably you know I would have said Far and Away that was my number one issue before the Staffing issue so those two kind of uh in combination and then the other really challenging one for healthcare is um Hospital Systems really try to monopolize the health care in any geographic area so they will do a lot they’ve been very aggressive purchasing um family practice offices so you have you know Family Practice it’s been in practice for 25 years and they’re doing fine but they’re getting older it’s like you know what I don’t really want to run a business anymore and so they sell that practice to the hospital and then the hospital kind of directs how that care should go they will say okay now you need to refer all of your physical therapy patients to us instead of the Private Practice person you’ve been referring to so they’re under pressure to kind of keep things integrated within the hospital system now and all of those relationships that we’ve built over the years with these private practices are a lot harder to you know generate or you know get those patients anymore so that’s been that’s been a challenge and we’ve seen that in multiple parts of the city down on the south side we see that when we uh have done some marketing and try to get into some position offices on the West Side uh in the on the southwest side those are some places that we’ve really tried to push and we kind of get that same pushback well you know the hospital kind of right makes it known that I need to keep things kind of vertically integrated so that’s been that’s been a real uh Big Challenge just kind of being able to get out and talk to Physicians you can almost always talk to them but the message sometimes is the same it’s like yeah I’d love to refer out to you but this is kind of the the way our system is set up and right it makes it really challenging wow that’s too bad yeah well so um how what do you with all of that what do you think in terms of who are the types of people or what are the resources that you’re you’re going to need to you know to to tackle these challenges over the next few years yeah one of the things that has happened with physical therapy in the last few years um actually quite it was almost 10 years ago now I guess um where we are allowed to see patients this is relatively new in Indiana it’s been around the country in lots of different places for a long time but it’s called direct access and direct access to physical therapy means you don’t have to go through your physician to go to physical therapy so that does give us a little bit of a kind of a a workaround where you don’t have to go talk to the doctors and convince them to send you patients and you go and you talk directly to Consumers so drug companies have been doing this for a long time now but direct to consumer marketing you know they didn’t used to do that back when I was a kid you didn’t see a bunch of ads on TV for you know diabetes drugs or uh anxiety medication they would spend all of their resources talking to doctors yeah what they started to realize is if you Market directly to the consumer that can go a long way so now that we are able to um see people without a physician referral we can go directly to Consumers to do some of that marketing and that’s been pretty effective that’s where those local connections to me that’s another one of those areas that I really try to try to hit on and talk to um you know students about is make those local connections whether that be with your church which has been instrumental for for me and the number of people that we see from our church Community the school Community where your kids go to school um or even if you don’t have kids the school community that you live in that you can connect with and just be a part of the school system uh those kinds of uh opportunities are still there and that is a great way to continue to generate that interest and knowledge about what you do as a physical therapist or as any business and try to generate the the business that way so that’s really the the best way that I have found and to kind of work around some of the physician challenges that we’ve had with some of these Hospital Systems is you just get get to know people yeah and you know you can always get involved in the Chamber of Commerce and places like that get involved with other business owners uh talking about ways that you can kind of help each other out and those it’s amazing to me the more you talk to people the more you realize those connections are there you know it’s they’ll say oh my gosh I know somebody that does this and you know that may be somebody you should talk to and it’s like oh wow I never even thought about that and then you know you kind of go that route and then you have somebody that you run into maybe you know I spend 45 minutes or an hour working with every person I’m I’m working with it’s a lot of talking time yes if I’m talking to them and they’re talking about a problem they have and it’s somebody there’s a business owner that I know that provides some service that maybe they could benefit from I can pass that name along and and so there’s a little bit of a symbiotic relationship there that can be really helpful if you can kind of just develop those relationships I love that because everybody knows somebody right right the idea yeah do you know anybody that you know is experiencing this pain or this uncomfortableness or or and uh yeah to your point right you’re building pretty pretty solid relationships with the folks that you’re working with because it’s undivided attention for like you said 45 minutes oh yeah right yeah I love that that does provide a lot of opportunity for that the other thing I really like about what you’re saying is the idea of pivoting so hey if the if the director route is not working because of the the hospital systems then you know how else might we you know get to our ideal um uh clients and and you know go direct and leverage look at what’s happening in the marketplace and say hey how might we apply that to our practice and um so that’s awesome uh Ken in terms of hey it that that’s the kind of innovative thinking that we need as business owners and you mentioned covid right and all the different things people tried during during the pandemic of you know the the Telehealth and all that kind of stuff it’s like well that’s what’s needed to be a successful business owners is having that tenacity to to keep you know it’s exploring new ways to to get the business and build the business and and sustain the business so thank you for sharing that that’s awesome sure last question here um Jim Rohn said that we become the average of the five people that we spend the most time with so Ken as you think about that quote what advice would you have for folks for business owners in particular who are trying to do it on their own and think that they shouldn’t ask for help yeah I it kind of as I mentioned a couple times with a couple of those areas I mean the the things that I really try to keep in mind and focus on and when I’m talking to physical therapy students that are coming through that we’re working with or I’ve done some presentations and high schools and talked about different things I mean number one is creating those local connections and being able to um connect with the community in a way that not only just for the you know it seems almost self-serving it’s like okay I’m out there because I’m a business owner but there’s a lot that you can provide them and that they can provide you so it really does become kind of a give and take and uh creating those local connections is is really really important um relationships in general along those same lines I mean you my story when you look at kind of Brian and I met him in 1995 as a student you know he was my professor and then we just kept in touch kept in touch so it was a relationship that we had I never had uh ideas that I was gonna start my own business or you know be a business or a clinic owner or anything like that but after having that relationship with him seeing what he has done and then being able to kind of build on that and then him being able to provide that opportunity for me that was a relationship that just really turned into something great like that um the other thing well and the support network is another big piece of that making sure you have family and friends and other business owners that can kind of Provide support at during down times especially but then also celebrate your successes you know that’s important too it can get Lonely at the Top can it I’ll let you know if I ever get there

um but uh the other thing is creating gold like your business goals the reason you do it have to be in line with who you are as a person and I think sometimes people get um get a little bit out of touch with that and they start kind of getting off the rails and if you can kind of keep yourself centered why is it I want to do this do I want to do this because I want the autonomy to be able to like do what I want to do do I want to make more money because that’s a great opportunity do I just want to uh be able to provide this service to people uh in a way that I feel is the best way to provide that service and then your business kind of Follow that path and not get too far you know not let other people convince you well you should be doing it for this reason or you should be doing it for this reason it’s like yeah but this is why I’m doing it and you want to stay uh connected with that with that path that you’re comfortable with I love that yeah the the we we just joked about that it can be lonely at the top and so the what I mean by that is when we were employees right we had somebody we had a manager that we could go to and ask for input and advice oh right right when we’re a business owner right it’s like who do I talk to so um your point of right we need to have a social network and we need to have others that we can be able to reach out to and say hey I’m I’m kind of struggling with this with this idea or this thing that’s happening in my business and and I just need you know I need somebody to lament with or I need somebody to tell me it’s going to be okay and and I agree with you you know having a having a strong family support system is key because the the business owner Journey can be a little bit of a roller coaster from time to time yeah absolutely that’s one of the things that I had in that same presentation is uh be prepared for the ups and downs you know there’s going to be lots of lots of ups and lots of downs and you can’t you can’t get too high or too hello no matter what the situation is at the time you know you got to stay pretty even Keel and and just kind of keep your eye on what needs to be done I love that yes because yeah the the it’s unexpected right nobody would have predicted covid right and right yeah exactly and we all had to figure out how to survive through it so um congratulations to everyone who’s listening who did you know right figure out how to get through it so hey Ken it sounds like you’ve been blessed with some pretty incredible people in your your business owner Journey if they were all on the show here today what would you want to say to them well I mean I would say thank you very much you know it’s been it’s been a pleasure to work with all of them and uh you know at different times it’s been uh it’s been a lot of growth and uh it’s kind of helped me to kind of form me who I am today so I mean you can’t ever see that as a bad thing so uh you know I’ve been really fortunate to work with a lot of great uh fellow business owners a lot of great Physicians I’ve had some uh unbelievable physician contacts over the years um that have been instrumental in building our business and helping to uh support us their vision is very similar to our vision and that’s the best you know when the patients see that and can feel that they feel very lucky to be kind of working with the group instead of just Bunches of individuals so that’s been wonderful so uh you know just lots of great relationships I’ve been able to form over the years and I’ve been very fortunate and blessed to kind of go through all that process and so I would just say thank you to each of them for everything that they’ve been able to provide me and hopefully I’ve been able to provide some things for them too that’s fantastic well Ken it has been a pleasure speaking with you today thanks so much for being on the show yeah thanks for having me it’s been great and it’s been great talking to you and talking about some of the things that I feel pretty strongly about when it comes to working with other people and as you say you know making things better together I mean that’s really the key for everything so I appreciate that to everyone who tuned in thanks for listening to the self-made is a myth show with your host coach Tim campsel be sure to help spread the movement by liking the show and posting about it on your social media and to join us go to bemadtogether.com all right folks that’s a wrap make sure to pay it forward and I’ll see you all next time take care